Help on a catchy logo?

[Redcap]

OK, here's the basics: I run a UK based website called Practical Airsoft, which you can find at http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/.

Even though I gave the site a facelift over Christmas, I'm looking to completely update the site in the next few months, as I'm still not happy with the look and feel; To this end, I need to come up with a brand new logo, from which the rest of the look and feel will develop. Problem is, I'm not so hot on the ideas front - probably from trying too damn hard to come up with something.

Limitations:


It should at least convey the idea of Airsoft gaming (see the site for more info).
It's got to load quickly for people on dial-up connections.
Colours have to be web-safe (visibone 256 colour pallette comes to mind).
I'd like to keep with a similar colour scheme to the current one, if possible.
It mustn't be a PNG - not enough browsers out there support the format.
The page width is flexible (based on percentages in the table layouts), but I wish to work with the lowest common denominator, and that means a maximum image width of 800 pixels.


FYI, I've been using both Fireworks3 and Paint Shop Pro to develop my graphics until now, as I use a damned old machine - a P166!

Any ideas out there?

[animgirl]

I have an idea. I'll try to post it later today.

[Redcap]

Thanks, and I look forward to seeing your idea(s) - all help will be very gratefully received, as I'm completely stumped on the ideas front!

[animgirl]

Here it is; it's 12 kb.

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl
Here it is; it's 12 kb.

Interesting; The file size is right, and the background colour is good to go, that's for sure; the upper font is OCR-A right? The lower one I don't know. I'm not too sure of the bb doing a return loop mind you - the eternal Airsofting quote comes immediately to mind:
"DUCK!"
"Where? AGH! HIT!"

:D

But, interesting, none the less; I'd be interested in hearing the thinking behind it, if you'd like?

[animgirl]

The thinking behind it? (he he)
I know, I know, that's what I thought too; a curving hit?
But, a straight line just didn't look right. Too plain or something.
I dunno.

Yeah, the top one is OCRA- anything else just looked too gaudy. The bottom is Borg9, I used it because it had a slit made right into the font.

Interesting, yes. :D

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl
The thinking behind it? (he he)
I know, I know, that's what I thought too; a curving hit?
But, a straight line just didn't look right. Too plain or something.
I dunno.

Heh. Now you can see the problems that I've been having ;)

Yeah, the top one is OCRA- anything else just looked too gaudy. The bottom is Borg9, I used it because it had a slit made right into the font.

D'oh. Shoulda realised that - I used that in the first draft of the current logo, switching to Runner instead. FYI, the upper font in the current logo is 'VAGRounded Lt', made italic, of course.

Interesting, yes. :D

:hmmmm: Yeah. OK, let's see if you (or anyone else) can follow this:

If a worded logo, then the logo should emphasis a practical nature: Common sense applied to the game of Airsoft skirmishing; the second word should be anything you think makes the logo 'complete'; any decorations/embellishments should be in keeping with the logo and site. The entire logo will be used to develop the rest of the new look to the website.

If a design, then all of the above should be borne in mind; the logo should be memorable, but tasteful (yeah, right!), and restrained in the use of colours - there may or may not be a 'military' feel to the logo (given the nature of the web site, that's hardly going to be a surprise :D), but again, the deveopment of the new look of the web site will be based in large part on the logo.

How's that? Any ideas?

[DCElliott]

What about an aiming reticule somewhere in the logo - that would give a curved element that could be repeated elsewhere - for example in a favicon, list-images, and other graphical elements.

Reticule images:http://images.google.ca/images?num=50&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=reticule&sa=N&tab=wi

Looks like an interesting combat game.

DE

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott
What about an aiming reticule somewhere in the logo - that would give a curved element that could be repeated elsewhere - for example in a favicon, list-images, and other graphical elements.

Hmm.The current favicon is a simple 'PA' in stencil format, and will also change, so this is nice thinking - thanks!

As to the reticule in the logo, interesting. The idea's growing on my by the minute, lol

Reticule images:http://images.google.ca/images?num=50&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=reticule&sa=N&tab=wi

I quite like one on the first page of results, second line, second from left (http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=homepage.mac.com/pquade/.cv/pquade/Public/reticule.jpg-link.jpg&imgrefurl=http://homepage.mac.com/pquade/FileSharing.html&h=480&w=640&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dreticule%26svnum%3D50%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN), but obviously, I'd need any reticule in a resulting logo/design to be changed or different enough to avoid copyright problems ;).

EDIT: Dammit, I *knew* this was going too well. Check this out. (http://www.airsoft-guide.com/default.asp) Another site (in the USA) had the same idea. Still, the idea's still a goer, if we can figure out a way to avoid the 'copy cat' syndrome.

Looks like an interesting combat game.

DE

Well, it's growing world-wide: If you read the "History of Airsoft" section, you'll see that it's gaining popularity. It's certainly growing here, and there are many of us in the UK 'doing our bit' to help it get even more popular!

The word 'interesting', when describing it, doesn't really do it justice, though! If you've played paintball, you'll know that it's getting ever increasingly commercial, with professional teams, and so on: In many of our minds (in the Airsoft community), therefore, the enjoyment is seeping out, as if you play to win prizes, you lose the fun.

Airsoft, OTOH, is an amateur game in the main, although playing sites and businesses to sell the models (guns, I suppose some call them!), equipment, and so on, can make a reasonable income from it: Until recently, I actually wrote a column in a UK gun magazine called Gun Mart, but that column has ended (from the March 2003 edition), which is a shame. Insead, I'll be writing in a new magazine, to come out from, it is planned, June.

Players come from all walks of life, and most age groups from the mid/late teens and up, and, because it's an amateur game, I like to think that we all enjoy it so much better for that fact!

I'd better stop here on the actual hobby, as my soap box is about to break (and I've wandered waaaaay off topic, lol), besides, you can read all about it on Practical Airsoft :D.

Oh, yeah - it's also a GREAT stress reduction aid!

[DCElliott]

I quite like one on the first page of results, second line, second from left The position of forum wiseass is already taken, thank you very much. Although, when you say you "bagged" someone it would be accurate, wouldn't it?
:crazy:

Regarding AIMING reticules, however, this one looks particularly sinister, especially if it were in red.
http://serge.bertorello.free.fr/details/titan/reticule.gif

If you get up on that soapbox any higher, you'll have to go on oxygen. :p

DE

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott
The position of forum wiseass is already taken, thank you very much.

Aw, nuts. Another career path overtaken by events ;)

Out of interest, who *is* the current post holder (grinning, ducking, and running) ?

Although, when you say you "bagged" someone it would be accurate, wouldn't it?
:crazy:

Er... qué? Nó compréndé sénor! ;)

Regarding AIMING reticules, however, this one looks particularly sinister, especially if it were in red.

Probably - illuminated reticules are becoming popular over here, as well, so it's a topical idea; the problem in that respect is that it wouldn't do at all as a favicon, and that's one of the things that I have to consider. Now, going back to the cross hairs that I quite liked, the one below is the one I liked, LOL -

http://homepage.mac.com/pquade/.cv/pquade/Public/reticule.jpg-link.jpg

I think it can easily be reduced in size to favicon proportions, even if some modification needs to be performed to do it, and the recognition factor will still be present. It would also be equally good in red, come to think of it. Thoughts?

If you get up on that soapbox any higher, you'll have to go on oxygen. :p

DE

Good point, well made, taken on board (oops). :messedup:

[DCElliott]

Er... qué? Nó compréndé sénor! ;)

Well, when I did my search, this is what was on the second line, second from the left:
http://www.denverfabrics.com/assets/gifobjects/buckaroo%20bobbins/reticule.150.gif

[animgirl]

So what do you want? :p

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott

Well, when I did my search, this is what was on the second line, second from the left:
http://www.denverfabrics.com/assets/gifobjects/buckaroo%20bobbins/reticule.150.gif

ROFLMFAO - I can see the confusion!

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl
So what do you want? :p

Honestly? I dunno: A logo that grabs my eyes, and says "This is the one" or something, I guess. I've been wracking my head/brains/etc for so long on this damn thing that there's grey stuff just ready to ooze out of my ears.

Looking over my previous posts on this topic, I think I've been fairly clear in my thinking. Problem is, the comms don't seem to be making the trip to you, which is quite probably my fault, darn it (SysAd note - the : o u c h : smiley doesn't work. You get this instead. :ouch.).

Awright, let's see if I can make some sense of the mess inside my head, so that you can see where I'm coming from, and where I want to go... :eek:

First off, While I've currently got a worded logo, I really and truley like the idea of a design for a logo, but I'm not a graphic artist. I've played around with myriad ideas, but none of them really flew (and are, frankly, best left unsaid, they're so appalling).

As I said earlier, whatever logo or design I like will be used as the basis for the rest of the new-look redesign; pages will remain as-is, i.e., no frames.

I'm looking for, at the very least I guess, a leg up on generating a logo or design that assists me in making the site look bang up to date, forward-looking, practical, and, above all, helpful to the intended visitors, and so that they'll keep coming back.

This means that colours have to be, while subdued to a certain extent, in keeping with the subject as well, which, frankly, has a military feel, so we're probably looking as camouflage colours, i.e. greens, browns, tans, and black. Not an easy thing to balance, I'll freely admit. An original logo I had for the site used British DPM camouflage masked over the text you currently see in mid-tan on the site; I dropped that, as it made reading the text nigh-on impossible for visitors with 256-bit colour depth (we ARE talking a while back, of course). Still, to cater to the lowest common denominator, I feel it's best to stick to the web-safe pallette, for that very reason (and is, of course, good practice).

Techy-style designs might be a nice way to go; Arnie's Airsoft (http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/beta/html/) (a very good mate of mine owns the site) has something along those lines, by the way. While I obviously don't want to go with a take-off of his logo, the thinking behind it is rather apparent.

Given, then, that the game is a combat simulation in the most part, I think a better look would be a sort of military theme, but, even though I spent several years in the Reserves, there isn't really a 'Military' theme that exists - it's mostly Hollywood that does that (and good font designers, lol).

I guess the best way of describing it, is a brainstorming session, to get me going, as it were - and if someone comes up with THE design/logo that grabs my eyes and holds them there, so much the better (and believe me, proper credit WILL be given on the site if this happens, as it's only fair to do so!).

I dunno. Maybe I'm wishing for pie in the sky, but it's where I'm at, at the moment. Any ideas?

[animgirl]

The bottom line.
Any ideas?

I already kinda knew 99% of what you said; I was just looking for something from you like, yeah; I think a reticule thing might be something to try, or whatever.

:D

[Zero Angel]

Here is something simple I made that uses a reticle. Feel free to use any ideas from there. I can even upload the .psd file if you want to modify it yourself.

[animgirl]

oooh, me likey.
Iz cool :D

[DCElliott]

What if the center circle were red?

D

[animgirl]

Then it would be the Christmas version :*D:

[DCElliott]

Hmmmmm . . .

Ya give them a little help an ya see what happens.

Animgirl, I have a reward for you, click on the picture below to receive it:


http://www.dawnweimer.com/bronze_sculpture/images/too_big_for_her_britch_312shd.jpg
(http://www.dawnweimer.com/bronze_sculpture/too_big_for_her_britches.html)

Pretty "cheeky", wouldn't you say?

[animgirl]

SOLD OUT.


Now that's saying something. :p

:D

Somebody's got a sensitive spot when it come to colors, aye? :p

[Redcap]

Originally posted by Zero Angel
Here is something simple I made that uses a reticle. Feel free to use any ideas from there. I can even upload the .psd file if you want to modify it yourself.

Oooooo! I *LIKE* it! :OO

Zero Angel, mate, you, Sir, are a genuine star! It's just what the Corporal ordered, LOL!

If you wouldn't mind letting me have the PSD file, I'd like it, mate. If you can make sure that the file is compatible with Fireworks 3, that'd help me, too; if not, no probs, as I reckon that I can reverse engineer it easily enough!

Ta muchly in advance :thumbup:

Originally posted by animgirl
oooh, me likey.
Iz cool :D

No kidding!

Originally posted by DCElliott
What if the center circle were red?

D

I was thinking that myself: Also, I think I'll be adding the line all the way across the page - see? Ideas are flowing already, LOL ;)

Originally posted by animgirl
Then it would be the Christmas version :*D:

ROFL - I have a Crimbo graphic for that already, lol!

Folks: Many thanks for all the ideas and help: I'll let you all know how it turns out, if you like?

Edited for telling sperrors!

[Zero Angel]

Aaaah, thanks for the compliments. However its something that I didnt put too much attention into, for example, the points on the reticle are different sizes (I made it in MS Paint :D )

The font I used for the second word is called 'Terminator', so you'll probably have to download it if you want to use it in your own art, but I can also include it in a .zip file.

I can also just take the simple reticle and make a black and white copy of it so you can paste and manipulate for your own files.

As for the PSD file, its a Photoshop file, so i'm not sure it will work with fireworks, seeing as Adobe and Macromedia are competing companies..

[Redcap]

Originally posted by Zero Angel
Aaaah, thanks for the compliments. However its something that I didnt put too much attention into, for example, the points on the reticle are different sizes (I made it in MS Paint :D )

OMG! You're taking your life in your hands admitting that, surely?! ;)

The font I used for the second word is called 'Terminator', so you'll probably have to download it if you want to use it in your own art, but I can also include it in a .zip file.

I think I've already got it, but thanks for the offer, none the less!

I can also just take the simple reticle and make a black and white copy of it so you can paste and manipulate for your own files.

NP; I can reverse engineer it in Fireworks just as quickly, I reckon.

As for the PSD file, its a Photoshop file, so i'm not sure it will work with fireworks, seeing as Adobe and Macromedia are competing companies..

Hmm. I've managed to open PSD files in Paint Shop Pro before now (earlier version PSD files, admittedly), but, given this (and yeah, I agree!), I'll just develop a version of it in Fireworks; shouldn't take too long, anyhow, given the easy concept that you've given me there.

I'm still a little shell shocked at the simplicity and elegance of the logo you've come up with. Chances are, left to my own devices, I would have faffed things up, and produced a rediculously complex and unwieldy design. Damn, these boards are a gold-mine of talent!

It'll be a couple of weeks (well, maybe a month, given the day job, lol) before I have a prototype page incorporating the logo and new look set up but, if you like, I can keep you posted on how things go - and again, Thanks for the leg up and help on this - it's greatly appreciated!

Edited for telling sperrors ;)

[Redcap]

Right, here's the reverse-engineered Fireworks 3 version, exported to a gif.

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_0_2.gif

The source file, in Fireworks 3 format, including the True Type fonts, is here (in zip archive format), (http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/files/new-logo.zip) in case you want to play with it some more.

I'll probably wind up adding the glow to the outer ring and spokes, and the spoke leading off to the right.

Opinions are still welcome, by the way!

[animgirl]

I don't know if the text looks as good black like that. I think on a web page it would make the logo not as noticeable because the black letters make it look dark.

I dunno.

I think I would almost tend to reverse the colors, black glow (not as drastic though) and lime letters.

I dunno.

[Redcap]

Good point; I need to think about that. In the mean time, here's a modification of the design itself. I've changed it to more reflect a 'red dot' style of sight, so as to avoid any possibility of accusations of copy-catting from Airsoft Guide (http://www.airsoft-guide.com/default.asp) in the USA...!

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_0_3.gif

Going back to the fonts...

Looking at this, you're right about the black font colour. It *is* too dark. Red is out, as the green glow will cause a conflict of colour painful to the eye (certainly, my eyes, lol), so I need to think about the font colour; you're dead right about the darkness factor. Hmm. How about white, with the green glow? Thoughts on all of this would be welcome, of course ;)

[animgirl]

White with a green glow?
Try it :)

Or lime green-letters with a black glow maybe (just on the text).

[Redcap]

Well, the white didn't look right, so I used a really bright lime green, instead. I've also added a bb round zapping off to the right, to emphasise the Airsoft nature of the site. I'm still not too happy with that, though. Thoughts would be appreciated!

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_0_4.gif

Also, the glow, for some reason, has banded quite visibly; I think I'm gonna have to play with the colour depth a bit. Thoughts?

Edit: Anyhow, having woken up earlier at Oh-My-God-O'clock in the small hours (my neighbour's new brat is a loud one when it wakes up - we're *all* losing sleep in this block of flats! :rolleyes: ), I'm off to catch another couple of hours sleep, before my day job shift; I'll catch you all later - have a good one, folks!

[Redcap]

BINGO!

Always happens. My head hits the pillow, and *BING!* an idea pops in ;)

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_0_5.gif

What do you think now?

Catch you all later!

[Zero Angel]

Very nice!

I really like the red dot, but maybe try lowering the glow of the words and of the reticule, and making the color of the text stand out a little less, maybe by altering its hue a little and adding more green.

[Redcap]

Thanks!

OK, here's the latest version; I'll incorporate your suggestions when I get home tonight (it's 07:37am here in London!)

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_0_6.jpg

In this version, it's a subtle change: I've changes the line to the 'bb' from a 'line' to a polygon, and removed the outer stroke, changing the fill to a gradient, so that the reticule colour fades to the 'bb' colour.

Later!

[DCElliott]

In Corel Photo-Paint I have a large number of fractally derived textures available, one of them called "moss" I think the background needs to be textured and moss looks like a wall of fine green foliage. I will post a swatch of it tonight (at work now) and see what ya think.

I think the design is getting there, but would suggest a smaller and sharper edged glow than you have used above. Don't want the design to start lookin 'poufy' do we? :p

DE

[animgirl]

I think what may be missing here is some depth.
Like some drop shadows or defining outlines.

I like the lime green letters, but it might look good if they were outlined thin with black or something.

(DC and I cross-posted, and I agree with his suggestions too!)

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott
In Corel Photo-Paint I have a large number of fractally derived textures available, one of them called "moss" I think the background needs to be textured and moss looks like a wall of fine green foliage. I will post a swatch of it tonight (at work now) and see what ya think.

I'll wait with interest - I had planned to use the photos behind the existing logo, to add depth, but, on reflection, it'll just make it look cluttered and messy, so a foliage-style of background is probably for the best - good idea, and thanks!

I think the design is getting there, but would suggest a smaller and sharper edged glow than you have used above. Don't want the design to start lookin 'poufy' do we? :p

DE

:eek: most certainly not :D

Since I've only just got in from work a few minutes ago, it's probably going to be an hour or maybe two, before I get the next version of the logo up (sans foliage background!), so we may wind up posting again within a few minutes of each other.

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl
I think what may be missing here is some depth.
Like some drop shadows or defining outlines.

I'm not so sure about drop shadows, with the existing dark background. We'll see how the foliage he's suggesting works, I think, and worry about shadow after that.

Defining outlines, though, is an interesting idea...

I like the lime green letters, but it might look good if they were outlined thin with black or something.

I'll look into that before posting my next version, then. Thanks for the suggestions!

(DC and I cross-posted, and I agree with his suggestions too!)

Cool, and so noted!

[Redcap]

here's the latest version, less the background that DC mentioned.

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_0_7.jpg

I *think* I got everything mentioned thus far in; the lines around the words works, I think; I've reduced the size of the pipper in the reticule, and reduced all glow by around 50 or so percent.

Comments thus far?

[animgirl]

It might look good to not italicize the 'practical' but leave 'airsoft' italicized.

I think the outline helps a lot. Makes it kinda pop-out.
I'm still a huge believer in drop shadows :p

But like you said, it's a good idea to see what DC finds and add that first.

[Redcap]

I'm not too sure about that. Ever since Practical Airsoft went live, the masthead has always been capitalised. Maybe it's time for a change, but I'm not sure. I'll play about with it here, and see what results. You never know ;)

I agree with the outlining - it does help to emphasise the text! As to drop shadow, well, I like it as well, but never on a dark background - it looses the effect, IMHO.

In any event, let's see what DC produces for a background image, and move from there.

Later!

[animgirl]

No, I just said maybe not italisized. Not about capitalization.

[DCElliott]

Here is an example with a moss texture to the left and a topo-map texture to the right.

I'll email you the textures separately as well in *.gif format

DE

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl
No, I just said maybe not italisized. Not about capitalization.

D'OH. Sorry about that! Long day at work, and a brain-dead me = misunderstanding and not reading the post correctly!

Hmm. I'll play around with the text a bit, and see what I think.

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott
Here is an example with a moss texture to the left and a topo-map texture to the right.

Damn, I like that - I like that a *LOT*! :OO

I'll email you the textures separately as well in *.gif format

DE

Got them, and many thanks, mate - Now to see if I can reproduce it, LOL!

[Redcap]

OK, given the background imagery, I think the first stage of the site re-design, will be to make a decision on screen width. With the above in mind, I'm going for a page width of 800 pixels. So, here's the first reverse engineered graphic, based on eveything thus far - and I *know* there's an odd blank mid-top; I'll be working on that this evening (UK time)!

I looked at Animgirl's point about italicisation, and played with it, but, personally, still feel that italics is the way to go.

I also looked at the capitalisation point raised earlier, and think the points are good to go, so the word 'Practical' has been sentence-cased, rather than capitalised.

I've also lengthened the right trail to the 'bb', so accomodate the length of the graphic, and stretch out the words, to match.

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_0_9.jpg

DC - looking at your version, and mine, and the contours, how did you achieve the final result - did you layer several contours atop each other?

Thoughts and impressions, please?

[Zero Angel]

My guess is that he didnt have the source file and just used a 'cut' tool to erase the green background, then antialiased it and added a diff background.

[DCElliott]

The contour tool is a might bit touchy and uses a random seed so that you can't reproduce it exactly. There are parameters I can play with to increase the density of lines. I then overlaid the two layers and did a transparency fade in the middle third. I had previously masked your original and did a little trimming and feathering (lost too much glow on the aiming red dot, I'm afraid) and layered that on top. Exported to jpeg at about 80% quality.

I can fire off some more contours if you like. Alternatively, you might scan in an actual map and do the fade to that. It is all a matter of the final effect you are looking for. (and sometimes you only know what it is when you see it, right?)

DE

[DCElliott]

Just thought of sumpin' else.

You might consider CSS layering - it can be very effective. Animgirl and I came up with a really neat effect on a site she has been doing for a vocal group. The masthead has 4 layers counting from back:
#1 background
#2 text with faint glow effect
#3 R-side picture
#4 L-side graphic text

These layers slide together as the page is resized. You can see it
here. (http://www.alliancemusic.org)

You could do a similar thing if you had practical and the reticule on one side and Airsoft on the right and the mid-part of the horizontal line as a background with an x-repeat that would stretch with resizing.

Confused yet?

Oh, why do I bother - yer gonna make one of those rigid table-based monstrosities anyhow instead of embracing the mind-boggleing simplicity and elegance of CSS liquid design.

DE (Just another cheeky colonial :D )

[animgirl]

You could do a similar thing if you had practical and the reticule on one side and Airsoft on the right and the mid-part of the horizontal line as a background with an x-repeat that would stretch with resizing.

Oh, that would be cool, and the design would work so well!

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott
The contour tool is a might bit touchy and uses a random seed so that you can't reproduce it exactly. There are parameters I can play with to increase the density of lines. I then overlaid the two layers and did a transparency fade in the middle third. I had previously masked your original and did a little trimming and feathering (lost too much glow on the aiming red dot, I'm afraid) and layered that on top. Exported to jpeg at about 80% quality.

OK, gotcha. Thanks. I used JPEG at 80%, as it happens. I completely re-did the layers in the Fireworks file, having two bitmap layers for the two different backgrounds, masking them within their specific layers on a graduated fade, to achieve a similar result to yours. The lettering went on yet another layer, and the reticule, pipper, bb and long line on another.

Layer order (topmost first):
#1 Vector lines
#2 Lettering
#3 Moss background
#4 Contour background

I can fire off some more contours if you like.

If it's not too much trouble, that'd be good, thanks!

Alternatively, you might scan in an actual map and do the fade to that. It is all a matter of the final effect you are looking for. (and sometimes you only know what it is when you see it, right?)

DE

True, but, unlike the USGS, the HMOS (Her Majesty's Ordnance Survey) retains Crown Copyright on all maps - even those available to the public, so using an OS map contour would be a violation of HM Copyright, and since I'm a little picky on that score myself (I do my best to protect my own material as well), random contours would appear to be the best bet, darn it, even if I were the only one to know that I'd nicked one of H.M's maps!

Just thought of sumpin' else.

You might consider CSS layering - it can be very effective. Animgirl and I came up with a really neat effect on a site she has been doing for a vocal group. The masthead has 4 layers counting from back:
#1 background
#2 text with faint glow effect
#3 R-side picture
#4 L-side graphic text

These layers slide together as the page is resized. You can see it
here.

And very nice it looks - and looking at the source confused the crap out of me :messedup:

You could do a similar thing if you had practical and the reticule on one side and Airsoft on the right and the mid-part of the horizontal line as a background with an x-repeat that would stretch with resizing.

If I get what you mean, that's confuse the hell out of a visitor - "So is the site called 'Practical' or 'Airsoft'?!" comes most immediately to mind, lol!

Still, a CSS site sounds interesting. HOWEVER.

Her's a few stats for you...

Browsers used to visit Practical Airsoft over the last year;

1. Microsoft....5,628.......94.64
2. Netscape......247.........4.15
3. Other..............72.........1.21
Total..............5,947.......100.00%

Browser versions used in that time:

1....MSIE 6.0.................3,418.....57.47
2....MSIE 5.5....................912.....15.34
3....MSIE 5.0....................745.....12.53
4....Netscape 6.0.............184.......3.09
5....MSIE 6.0 (AOL)..........174.......2.93
6....MSIE 5.5 (AOL)..........161.......2.71
7....Opera 6.x....................60.......1.01
8....MSIE 6.0 (MSN)...........59........0.99
9....MSIE 5.1.....................45........0.76
10..Netscape 4.7..............45........0.76
11..MSIE 5.0 (AOL)...........44........0.74
12..MSIE 4.0.....................28........0.47
13..MSIE 5.2.....................18........0.30
14..Opera 7.x...................11........0.18
15..Netscape 4.5................9........0.15
16..MSIE 5.5 (MSN).............6........0.10
17..MSIE 4.5.......................4........0.07
18..MSIE 5.5 (AOL) (MSN)...4........0.07
19..Netscape 4.0................4........0.07
20..Netscape 4.6................3........0.05
21..MSIE 4.0 (AOL).............2........0.03
22..MSIE 4.0 (MSN).............2........0.03
23..MSIE 5.0 (MSN).............2........0.03
24..MSIE 6.0 (AOL) (MSN)...2........0.03
25..MSIE 3.0.......................1........0.02
26..MSIE 5.0 (AOL) (MSN)...1........0.02
27..Netscape 3.0................1........0.02
28..Netscape 4.8................1........0.02
29..Opera 5.x.....................1........0.02
Total............................5,947....100.00%

As you can see, there are a fair few browsers there that don't, the the best of my knowledge, support CSS all that well. Your opinion would be useful in deciding one way or the other, by the way.

Confused yet?

Somewhat.

Oh, why do I bother - yer gonna make one of those rigid table-based monstrosities anyhow instead of embracing the mind-boggleing simplicity and elegance of CSS liquid design.

DE (Just another cheeky colonial :D )

Not neccessarily, lol

Oh, and you may be a colonial, but you have a damned nice country there, mate - I know, as I've visited there - we have family freinds in Richmond, Vancouver, BC! ;)

[animgirl]

If I get what you mean, that's confuse the hell out of a visitor -"So is the site called 'Practical' or 'Airsoft'?!" comes most immediately to mind, lol!

Yeah, I can see how at larger .res's it could be confusing.

Maybe you could have the reticule on the left, and the "Practical Airsoft" to the right, and a repeat-x green line to make up the middle.

Or, keep the whole logo to the left of the screen, and have the thingie that's on the end of the line, {don't know what it's called right now} far to the right and tile a repeat-x green line to connect the two.
And then, you could put your menu names inside the green line that's tiling in the middle maybe, if it was large enough (and if the drop-down menu's didn't look funny.)
'cuz I think you said you were gonna re-design the whole thing or something.

I dunno, I'm confusing myself now. :smack:

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl

Yeah, I can see how at larger .res's it could be confusing.

Maybe you could have the reticule on the left, and the "Practical Airsoft" to the right, and a repeat-x green line to make up the middle.

Or the bulk of the logo/masthead on the left, with the 'bb' leading off to the right edge, which is also an option, of course!

Or, keep the whole logo to the left of the screen, and have the thingie that's on the end of the line, {don't know what it's called right now} far to the right and tile a repeat-x green line to connect the two.

Aha - I see we're thinking along similar lines ;)

And then, you could put your menu names inside the green line that's tiling in the middle maybe, if it was large enough (and if the drop-down menu's didn't look funny.)

Interesting. Not sure that'd work off the top of my head, but it's worth a good look when I get to that point - thanks for the idea!

'cuz I think you said you were gonna re-design the whole thing or something.

Yup. That's "The Plan"!

I dunno, I'm confusing myself now. :smack:

You mean there's something that can completely stuff your brain up?! :eek:

[animgirl]

I just said that to make you feel good. ;)

[Redcap]

LOL - naughty girl - had me going there! :)

OK, my day job shift today is gonna be a a b*tch - it's a 12 hour shift, a lot of which is on the road (I drive what's called a 'ferry bus', an 'internal' scheduled service to get the bus drivers around to where they need to be, for a local bus company. The run today isn't a difficult one, but the schedule is a real PITA!), so I don't think that there will be much here from me today - even so, I'll read this thread when I eventually get in from work, so please keep the ideas flowing!

OK, going back to the CSS side of things for a bit, I'm a little confused here: I may be getting well confused with XLM, but I thought that with a virtually fully CSS site, rather than a fully HTML with CSS on the side for style control, you had to develop a doctype for the CSS/XML to work (Now you know why I've used tables before - it's a damn sight easier on the brain to make a site that lots of browsers can see, lol)?

Now, if you have to develop a doctype, how the hell do you go about it, or are there some 'get you started' ones on the W3C site? I had a look, but got brain ache the minute I looked at their material on it - plain English it most definately is not :WTF: !

Edited for telling sperrors!

[tmmoose]

Try IT You Will Like It..http://www3.sympatico.ca/terry.mckee/redcap.jpg

[animgirl]

Don't worry, red, no one's gonna leave ya!

I admit though, moose has me confused totally right now.

OK, going back to the CSS side of things for a bit, I'm a little confused here: I may be getting well confused with XLM, but I thought that with a virtually fully CSS site, rather than a fully HTML with CSS on the side for style control, you had to develop a doctype for the CSS/XML to work (Now you know why I've used tables before - it's a damn sight easier on the brain to make a site that lots of browsers can see, lol)?

CSS and HTML/XHTML need to work together. There is no doctype CSS. CSS works within HTML/XHTML.

Now, if you have to develop a doctype, how the hell do you go about it, or are there some 'get you started' ones on the W3C site? I had a look, but got brain ache the minute I looked at their material on it - plain English it most definately is not!

Did you look at
this page? (http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_doctype.asp)

DC and Zero, where are you? :hmmm:

This is kinda not starting to fit the graphics design category :p

[DCElliott]

DC and Zero, where are you? :hmmm:
Just seeing how you can hold yer own. . . and yer not doin' bad.

If I can get into graphics, which is not my forte (like tables, eh?), then you can handle a few piddling misconceptions about CSS and XHTML, don't you think?

We're gonna have fun with this redcap guy, he's is sooo easy to tease. :p

And moosie, you belong on another forum I belong to. Regardless of what the original post is about, it always comes around to beer. :cheers:

DE

[animgirl]

If I can get into graphics, which is not my forte (like tables, eh?), then you can handle a few piddling misconceptions about CSS and XHTML, don't you think?
yah. :)

Regardless of what the original post is about, it always comes around to beer.
Must be a guy thing. :messedup:

[Redcap]

Originally posted by tmmoose
Try IT You Will Like It..http://www3.sympatico.ca/terry.mckee/redcap.jpg

LOL

Unfortunatley for the Carling Brewery, I prefer Wild Turkey!

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl
Don't worry, red, no one's gonna leave ya!

Glad to hear it, lol!

I admit though, moose has me confused totally right now.

Oh, I got it, never worry! He's making a joke association with my nickname here, my service with the Corps of Royal Military Police, and a certain brewery's product from way back when!

CSS and HTML/XHTML need to work together. There is no doctype CSS. CSS works within HTML/XHTML.

Thank the stars for that - the moment doctype and XML come up, my brain - and eyes - glaze over!

Did you look at
this page? (http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_doctype.asp)

Yes, thanks. I follow the point, but, until you explained the above, had XML confusion problems - and still have, to some degree. We'll need to continue this (CSS/XML/etc) elsewhere, I suspect, after the logo/design is finalised!

DC and Zero, where are you? :hmmm:

This is kinda not starting to fit the graphics design category :p

Pint - er, point - taken ;)

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott
We're gonna have fun with this redcap guy, he's is sooo easy to tease. :p

I heard that! :p ;)

[Redcap]

Originally posted by animgirl

Originally posted by DCElliott
Regardless of what the original post is about, it always comes around to beer. :cheers:

Must be a guy thing. :messedup:

Or, in my case, good Kentucky Bourbon!

And yep, it's a guy thing, lol!

[DCElliott]

Y'know, the way this guy reposts everything that was said before,
I'm gonna start calling him:
RECAP instead. :p

Dunno, mate, but you can't be very good at this Airsoft thing, ya jus don't know when to duck and cover. And telling us you are a fairy driver, oh, but am I gonna have some fun with that one.

<glee>Waiting for indignant response . . .</glee>

It's OK, you've been postin' here how long now? Can only have 'bout 2-3 more months left in the initiation period.

DE

[animgirl]

ROFL :thumbup:

[Redcap]

Originally posted by DCElliott
Y'know, the way this guy reposts everything that was said before,
I'm gonna start calling him:
RECAP instead. :p

Matey, I've been called loads worse in my time, that's definately small fry as things go :p

In any event, I was brought up to help others when I could: If this means quoting loads, to stop others having the need to scroll up and down a page, just to follow what's going on, then so be it, and :p to you :D

Dunno, mate, but you can't be very good at this Airsoft thing, ya jus don't know when to duck and cover. And telling us you are a fairy driver, oh, but am I gonna have some fun with that one.

<glee>Waiting for indignant response . . .</glee>

Heh. If you wanna call our double-deck bus drivers "fairies", then I'll visit you in A&E (Accident and Emergency, equivalent to the ER over there!); howzzat?

<grinning like an idiot>, imagining DC covered head to toe in medical plaster, drinking through a straw, having told one of our 6 foot twelve inch tall, five feet wide ethnically different drivers that he's a fairy!</grinning like an idiot>

It's OK, you've been postin' here how long now? Can only have 'bout 2-3 more months left in the initiation period.

DE

:rolleyes: That all? Pfah. I've been through RMP initiation, mate: Look at the cap-badge to the left of this message. You got nothin' on that, boy ;)

(Damned curious to see where this goes... ;) )

[i]Edited for telling sperrors and a grammatical fubar[i]

[Redcap]

Oh, and I've been called to do yet another twelve hour stint behind the wheel today, dammit. "I'll be back" to see how you cope with the above (lol) later tonight! Thanks the stars I've a rest day tommorrow!

Have a good start your your weekend, folks!

[animgirl]

Do you speak with one of those cool accents? I want one of those. :D

DC will appreciate you calling him a 'boy'; it'll make him feel young or something...

[Redcap]

OK, then: Let's try this WITHOUT the quotations, and see how it goes...!



Naw. I tend ter tawk wiv a saaaaarf lunnun aksent ;)

Of course, I [i]could try a... watsisname... er... vat bloke wot broke up wiv Liz Hugely - er, Hurley...! Oh, yeh. Hugh Grant.... Naw. Fergettit. I'd sound like a bleedin' plank! :D

[Remove accent straight off 'The Sweeney' TV series]

As to DC feeling young or something, w-e-l-l-l-l-l-l-l.... I guess everything helps the aged, lol (grinning, ducking and running) :p :D

BTW, DC (said he, donning his Body Armour and kevlar helmet!) - What did you use to come up with those damned impressive random contours?

Oh, and Animgirl - nice new Avatar - I like it!

[animgirl]

Well, well. Red DOES have some tude to hash out. :D

That random color thing is a pretty sweet deal, DC.

Thank You for liking the avatar :D.

[Redcap]

OK, here's the final version of the static logo, i.e., the unsliced, un-CSS'd, etc, masthead graphic...

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_1_0.jpg

Items changed/amended in this version: Another of DC's excellent background contours has been swapped instead of the previous one; the red pipper has had a central highlight added (which, while not all that obvious, I think adds to the effect ever so slightly).

Now, a problem: In order to get the graphic file size down, I had to optimise the JPEG considerably; do you think it looks OK as is, or do you want to see the source (Fireworks 3 very layered) .png file as well, to play around with it some?

Thoughts and impressions, please?

[Redcap]

Actually, come to think of it, it probably isn't the final version of the graphic, lol.

If I use a DHTML drop-down menu over the graphic using CSS positioning, as DC and Animgirl suggest, then I'll have to move all of the text in the graphic to the top of the line leading to the 'bb in flight' on the right, with the menu centred below the line. This is going to require extensive image slicing, hotspots, etc, and THAT'S going to require some imaginative thinking 'outside the box', so to speak, I think.

Thoughts?

[animgirl]

the red pipper has had a central highlight added
I went back a couple pages and looked at the last logo before this one, and there is a noticeable difference, the central highlight is perfect.

Now, a problem: In order to get the graphic file size down, I had to optimise the JPEG considerably; do you think it looks OK as is, or do you want to see the source (Fireworks 3 very layered) .png file as well, to play around with it some?
Well, I realize you are talking to general public here, but I don't have Fireworks. I don't know what could be played with to change the file size considerably, except for the actual size of the logo, it is pretty large.

Have you considered drop shadows on any of it? :eyebrow:

I wonder where DC is...

[Redcap]

Glad you like the pipper highlighting - it was a sudden piece of inspiration!

Yeah, it's a wee bit on the large side, I'd agree. I'll probably reduce the height anyhow, as it's a bit too tall for the screen res that it's primarily intended for. 100 Pixels tall is probably about right, I reckon.

[wiping off mouth, coughing]

As to drop shadows... Girl, you do *not* want to see where my coffee just went! Thank the stars that it missed the keyboard! ;)

[/wiping off mouth, coughing]

Seriously, no, I don't think they'll cut the mustard in this case, more's the pity. The shadows would be lost in the background, IMHO.

Re. not everyone having Fireworks. Good point. What do you use to generate graphics, out of interest? It might be that I can export it to a file readable on that package?

Re the lack of DC at the moment: I was wondering that too - I even dropped him an e-mail this morning, just in case he's having browser problems (not unknown on Windoze platforms, lol).

Edited for telling sperrors

[animgirl]

I use Adobe Photoshop.

Seriously, no, I don't think they'll cut the mustard in this case, more's the pity.
Oh, really? :p :p

The shadows would be lost in the background, IMHO.
It's not the fact that the shadows are supposed to be very noticeable, it's supposed to be a subtle hint of depth, but okay, okay,... I'll quite bugging you on that one.

:p

you were talking about coffee and I began to smell it... :hmmmm:

[Redcap]

Damn. No joy on exporting to Photoshop - looks like DC was right about Macromedia not wanting to give people help on that score, dammit... Oh, well.

I'm aware that intelligent use of drop shadows can make the difference between a 'flat' image, and one with depth - I've used the technique successfully before, and am normally dead in favour of using it, but on dark backgrounds, I prefer outer glows instead. Personal preference, I guess, but I don't think drop shadows would be right, in this case. And now I'll stop banging you over the head on that score, lol ;)

Anyhow, here's the reduced height version of the graphic. I've had to lengthen (again, already, lol) that damned line, but everything else remains the same, except the file size, which, at 70% compression, is still a 13.99kb JPEG :eek:

http://www.practicalairsoft.co.uk/images/practical-airsoft-logo_v_1_1.jpg

Er... you smelled the coffee I spilt (er... sprayed)? I didn't know Macroshaft had equipped their s/w with smell-o-sys yet?! :messedup:

Edited for grammatical fubars

[Redcap]

OK, now the masthead is sorted (at least, I think it is - am I wrong?!), I think the placement of the DHTML menu bar is obvious - right underneath it, instead of along the left edge of the page! Thoughts?

I can also get on with the coding of the new site layout. Can you suggest which forum to start on with the CSS advice, or do you want to do that via e-mail instead?

[animgirl]

And now I'll stop banging you over the head on that score, lol
ROFL
Personal preference I suppose.

13.99kb JPEG
Surely you don't think that's large?!?
That's itsy bitsy. Teeny. Schmall. :)

I didn't know Macroshaft had equipped their s/w with smell-o-sys yet?!
It's an a-girl thing.
You say chocolate, I say where.
You say dark chocolate, I say where where.
You say I spit coffee, I wrinkle my nose think eww, and begin to smell it.
Don't ask. :messedup:

I couldn't stand it in school when teachers would come up and lean over your shoulder, with that morning/coffee breath aroma and ask, do you need any hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhelp? Then you get this stupid intoxicated grin on your face and as you suck in air, and say no. Then as they walk away you shrivel onto the floor, only to find your pencil eraser you had lost a month ago. Maybe it was worth it...

That would be the web developemtn category. I don't want to puff or pop myself, I'm not all that when it comes to CSS yet :p, but DC is very knowledgeable.

[Redcap]

Well, compared to the gif version (a whopping 28kb), yeah, I suppose so. My target was around 9kb, so missing by around 4kb ain't too bad, I guess.

As to the chocolate and coffee thing, girl, you must be :messedup: , ;)

Re teachers, I always offered them a breath mint, but then I was a cheeky sod in school! :D

Thanks for the heads up on which forum, btw - I figured it might be that one, but it's always wise to check, just in case!

Many thanks for the help and assistance thus far, by the way!

[DCElliott]

Glad to see you've been keeping busy while I was away.

I think ya got something there, what? oh, I guess it's just the coffee stain on your tie.

Seriously, what the logo says is, here we have some underbrush, some mates pouring over a contour map, planning to set up the perfect ambush, reticule zeroed in on the hapless victim, then patwang, he's out for the round. It works for me.

Regarding the file sizes. You could get some double duty out of the graphics if you kept the background as a background to the header division with the foreground graphic positioned on top. Because the green background doesn't have a wide color variation, you might be able to get by with reducing the palette and getting a really good gif out of it. Similarly, there is not a lot of color variation in the foreground and if you gif it you can have a transparent background. To bad PNG isn't there yet in terms of browser support for alpha transparency because you could do some really neat things with the over-lapping layers.

The green backgrounds could be used in a footer section, as button backgrounds, etc. so that one graphic could work in several places. If you use CSS poitioning, you could basically chose what part ofthe graphic gets used, the moss end or the contour end.

Regarding graphics packages. Corel Photo-Paint has some interesting efects. Corel bought out some graphics products like Kai's tools, Xara, Painter and a few others. I think the texture generator came from Kai's tools (but not the Kai's interface - anyone remember that?)

Enough already,

DE

[Redcap]

Yep; we're not slouches here, despite rumours to the contary!

Er... What tie?!

Glad the logo works for you too - and thanks for the help on it, too!

File sizes. On background/foreground twin images. Interesting idea; I'll look into it, thanks. I totally agree about the lack of consistent support for PNG; it's as if the browser manufacturers are deliberately ignoring a marvellous opportunity.

As to footers, I'm thinking you've got a damn good idea there - thanks for the hint!

I'll also look into Kai's tools - thanks!

Have a good week, all!