What do you think of my site?

[Tarmithius]

www.realgeek.com (http://www.realgeek.com)

[Coreyp_1]

All that's coming up here is a parked page from eNom.

Have you just set up the site? If so, it may take a few days for the DNS changes to filter to those of us in the far reaches of the Internet.

:alien:

[Tarmithius]

Sorry I posted the wrong address. :o The actual one is realcompgeek.com (http://www.realcompgeek.com)

[DCElliott]

It is a travesty, Guinness should never be drunk that cold ( http://www.ivo.se/guinness/serve.html )

But the site looks good, even though it is table-based layout (and forum members know what I think of THAT :eek: )

DE

[Tarmithius]

I completely agree about the Guinness. As for the tables, what is so bad about them?

[Coreyp_1]

Tables have a dark and enigmatic past, born of malevolent hackers and dastardly oversights in the magical world of HTML.

-or something like that-

Here's the scoop: Tables were created for displaying data, not for controlling page layout. Using tables to cut up your page is akin to using GOTO statements in computer programming. While the code may be legit, it's seen by other programmers as shoddy workmanship.

Use CSS. It's more elegant in design, far more powerful, and easier to understand and modify (logic-wise).

[Tarmithius]

Coreyp_1 says Tables were created for displaying data.

that is what I thought this is doing. It is PHP, and the tables are displaying the data that is in SQL. Tell me if this is wrong.

[DCElliott]

To the backend database feeding the Xoom presentation engine, all the text is "data". But to humans it is not data, it is textual content. I didn't mean to get into the long-standing holy war on using tables for layout. Those of us who are using xhtml and css for presentation object to table layouts on several grounds.[list=1] Using tables for layout is a violation of the semantic intent of a table and most presentational tables violate a number of table rules regarding description and captioning.
The multiply nested table designs used by some pages will cause certain older browsers to become unstable. Additionally, newer user devices such as PDAs often cannot cope with table-based designs.
Table structure demands a logical order of content presentation based on a need to present information row-wise while the reader's logical document flow may be quite different. While this may not present problems to the average user, visually impaired persons using screen readers may be seriously disadvantaged by a table-based site.
Tables provide a rigid structure which can appear pixel-perfect at the expense of liquidity - the property of a page being able to flow depending on the viewers screen resolution and the aspect of their browser window.
[/list=1]Some members have demonstrated very well done table-based designs - Check out GeForc3 's work which combines a great talent with graphics with some really well done flexible table design. However, as a "designing for the modern web" principle, table-based design is on its way out.

DE

[drak]

Bleh Tables this, tables that. I don't care what it's all about. I do the work of 3d graphics. I'll use whats availible at my disposal if you don't like the shotty work don't surf there. =p

Most advanced surfers will agree with me. I'm working on it BTW I'm learning about what to do right. His website template is in use by many websites all over the world. It is good that you share the enthusiasm of other developers. Unlike most of you I don't make my bucks off of a web development. I do however know that 4.0 browser suck ass and anything before it. The crappy work you see on my website is a good example of a bad design. I'm working on it unlike the rest of you I use my computers to render heavy graphical movies. Which I sell to local Company's that use them for commercials on the TV. I'll use the vessel of choice. We that are not turbo charged in your educated essence of CSS / CSS2 have a learning curve to over come. (Which I'm more than sure you have know idea what I'm talking about.) I'd suggest not to instead of slandering a website someone has done. I'd suggest to give them the means on how to. Now doesn't that sound easier than ranting about something. Now I'd suggest to "Tarmithius" there is a few places to learn more about CSS and CSS2 to get the right aspect of what these guys are talking about. First look up CSS layout. You already have an idea of CSS display. Hence the font color and alink, hover, etc. Usually the best place is to go to http://www.glish.com/ Next would be to dig around on his site about the other information that is availible. If you wanted to get all geeked out on educating yourself see the information that MS(microsoft) has on CSS Designs.

Next just do a search on Google. There is a slew of wealth of information to work on as well once you conquer the CSS you will need to take a look into XML since this is the beast that makes it flow better.
For actual Programs that run on a server such as ASP CGI PHP the concept of the scripted based executables is fairly complex but with a few hours a day you can learn them fairly easy.

I think your Website is wonderful...

[DCElliott]

Drak, you've stated:I'd suggest not to instead of slandering a website someone has done. I'd suggest to give them the means on how to. Now doesn't that sound easier than ranting about something.
Well, if you look at my original post It is a travesty, Guinness should never be drunk that cold ( http://www.ivo.se/guinness/serve.html )

But the site looks good, even though it is table-based layout (and forum members know what I think of THAT ) First, I made a comment that can only truely be appreciated by Guinness snobs http://206.47.27.187/phpBB2/images/smiles/drinking.gif, then complimented the site, and made an observation, as I always do, that table based design is not the ideal. I didn't "slander" the guy's site. He, in turn, asked what was wrong with table based design and I think I gave a reasonable statement on the position taken by web-designers who are trying to make optimum use of modern coding advances while maintaining maximum compatability across a wide range of user agents (browsers). I don't believe DB and Coreyp_1's comments were slanderous or ranting either. So maybe pull in the horns just a little, OK? http://206.47.27.187/phpBB2/images/smiles/diablo.gif

If anyone is interested in learning more about CSS, the Glish site is good, especially for three column layouts such as Tarmithius is using, but the motherlode of CSS links is here (http://www.thefixor.com/code_css.php). A very useful resource distilled from the CSS-discuss listserv is here (http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FrontPage).

And drak, just so you know I'm not pissed with you, there is a Guinness waiting for you at Simon & Seafort's Saloon & Grill (http://www.r-u-i.com/sim/) next time I'm there.

DE

[drak]

Yeah well lets just say I had a really bad day with the QA department with the company I work with.

Atleast with C++ programing I don't have to worry about a CSS format =p.

Anyway. Thanks for Guinness (But I don't drink. Something about the state of Alaska, Nevada, California, Washington, New York. Think I have drinking problem. So justification of why I don't drink) Which could be the cause of my short fuse sometimes. =p Thats an entirely different story though.

[Tarmithius]

I have been away for a while. Thank you for everything you all said. I understand about the table design problems you all stated. As of this writing I just don't have the time to learn that much about CSS2, my wife just had twins a few months ago.

I am using a template, postnuke (http://www.postnuke.com), obviously I did not write this, although I have been tweaking a majority of it to suit my own needs. As for the tabulatur data, I think it is the entire page that is displaying data from MySQL. If I had enough time I would design the page on my own, which is what use to do. Until the twins accident happened.

I really appreciate everyone's input and thoughts. I actually redid my site over not too long ago. Feel free to visit realcompgeek.com (http://www.realcompgeek.com)

Thanks

[yellow_belly]

Hi - I would just ignore the bits about tables should not be used for layout, it sounds a bit like 'one upmanship' to me - how many surfers look at the source code, and who cares if they do ?

YB

[yellow_belly]

Hi David - I think you are taking things too literally, I think the above is just a warning about some things (eg non visual media)perhaps causing problems, the *first* paragraph on tables on the w3.org site states....

The HTML table model allows authors to *arrange* data -- text, preformatted text, images, links, forms, form fields, other tables, etc. -- into rows and columns of cells.

..hardly a reason for another poster saying...Tables have a dark and enigmatic past, born of malevolent hackers and dastardly oversights in the magical world of HTML....

I *wonder* what was used to control layout before CSS was around ?????

YB

[Coreyp_1]

..hardly a reason for another poster saying...Tables have a dark and enigmatic past, born of malevolent hackers and dastardly oversights in the magical world of HTML....


LOL

I forgot I had written that. I stand by my statement, especially since it was written as a light-hearted answer to someone's question about tables.

You must concede, however, that because HTML originally did not make provision for fomatting the layout of a web page, coders and web page developers had to use tables as a "hack" to make HTML do more than it was originally designed to do. (That was a long sentence!)

CSS has made great strides in filling that void.

I guess the question is this: Why use a typewriter when you could use a computer? Well, for some things, a typewriter is better suited, but for the majority of office and personal tasks (of that sort), a computer is far superior in layout flexibility, error correction, and design flexibility (not to mention cool screen savers!). A person can use a typewriter, but the output reflects the source.

Likewise, tables are great when used for what they were designed for: displaying tabular data.

Hope I didn't stir up a hornet's nest... :D

[EDIT: Corrected typos. Where's that spelchekre when you need it?]

[yellow_belly]

Hi Coreyp_1 - no hornets nest :) at least unless you live near animgirl (no thats gone now :) )

I thought it was just an example of overstatement :) and realised it was in 'jest' but it just emphasised that tables perhaps stir up more emotion than is really necessary. If a table works (for whatever reason) then as far as I can see that is perfectly o.k. and no stigma should be attached to who ever coded it This could be for a number of reasons, e.g. only just started with HTML and do not want/need to get into CSS yet, it wasnt that long ago (at least I can remember :) ) when I still had people surfing my sites with IE 3 which (if I remember correctly) did not support CSS.

So its horses for courses or should that be waiters for tables :)

YB

[George Cee]

I used tables for everything before I found this place! Now, I almost swear by CSS. It just feels wrong to use them now!

I think the problem today is the lack of CSS knowledge. Most webdev sites have CSS sections, but don't explain the importance of it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I havn't come across one yet.

Well, that's my (most likely un-needed) 2 cents on this css/table bull.

Piece Ez, Georgio...

[Coreyp_1]

I used tables for everything before I found this place! Now, I almost swear by CSS. It just feels wrong to use them now!


Another convert!

Soon, we will take over the world!

[themadpoet]

Can I throw in my 2 cents to since Mr Bindel converted me to CSS as well. I used to use tables for layouts..... I was even tempted to go back to the dark side as well for one site..... *hangs head in shame.

[drak]

Heheh I followed the crowd man if you all streaked through the Quad and in to the gymnasium I'd go too. After this last make over of my home page I'm hooked on CSS. I am so confident not to ever let a table touch an html document ever again in the pressence of my keyboard.
Cheers. Can't wait to see how well the interface is on 1stpages next release. The thought off using one place to edit and create all this on one app is gonna be cool =D

[Tarmithius]

I can see what everyone is saying but I do not think it is worth the argument. If I look at my hosts log I see that there are still people using IE 4, and IE 5. Not to mention some of the other browsers out there. Not all of them fully support CSS yet and the ones that do, support only what they feel neccesary to suuport.

I can understand the need to upgrade to CSS but that would leave out some of the potential visitors to my site. If you look around the web you are bound to find arguments for and against.

As for the comment you made Dbindel about the definition you must have missed this:

"The HTML table model allows authors to arrange data -- text, preformatted text, images, links, forms, form fields, other tables, etc. -- into rows and columns of cells."

This can be seen <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html" target="_blank">here.</a>

I am using PostNuke on my site because I find it much easier at the moment to use due to my busy homelife and with the above statement, that is exactly what my site is doing; arranging data. In my spare time I am slowly learning CSS and PHP. I am trying to educate myself.

This comment is not intended to insult anyone I just wanted to add my 2 cents due to it was I that originally posted this.

Tarmithius

[Tarmithius]

Yes I agree with you on that point.

[drak]

In the begining the world had only a few things to deal with. Browsers were aiming to have the best way to get everything laid out. This was the golden era of Browsers and the companies that developed them. Few things were adopted to display some of high yeild measures text to node display. From BBS's to HTML and Server side programs that ran them. What was aimed to provide a clean yet archaic way of bringing the best eye candy to the audience. Browser companies aimed to have a good main stream consortium of html processes. From 1.1 to beyond. Html has been the main stay of a cross plat form language to better display information, to the masses. And today we as a group also have the power to stop what was created. :p Don't feed the fire with a newspaper when you can poor on the liquid Methane. :D LOL Ah I just blabbering away here. I've seen browsers crash due to multi celled tables. Ive see content go hay wire over a wrong protocol. We all have making something a standard requires a group effort. :rolleyes: So ah when are we all gonna streak through the Quad?